*Important Notice for Current Players*

The subject of starting over with fresh characters has been talked about at least a few times in the past year or so.

This is an -official- notice of public hearing on the subject of continuing on with current characters. Everyone currently playing SnS is entitled to a say in the matter.

Just as an FYI, I think we've probably got at least till the end of Summer before the current plotline ends.

Food for thought. Post you .02 and be heard.

Personally, I would prefer if we can go on until atleast Level 12 or so. A lot of the characters are still working towards various things, and I'd like to see them get atleast that far.

Of course, everything beyond Level 15 or so is completely insane.

Gatac

Officially, Ilyanna is an NPC, so I'm not sure if I have a say in this.

That said, an opportunity to become a PC would of course be welcome. Ilyanna is an okay character, though coming up with my own character concept would be cool, too.

What level the characters are doesn't really matter to me.

Gordon

Levels matter way less to me with this online thing than they would in a tabletop environment, where I'd see all the bits and pieces.

That said, I like Artis, although I don't want to play him past his welcome.

I've got a new character, so I don't really care either way. If we're going to reboot, that's fine with me.

I'm not opposed to the idea of putting these characters out to "deadliest NPCs on 3 continents" status, but not quite yet. I figure we're due for another mission or two. Cleaning house, you know. The rats within the agency need to be dealt with.

You know, I think I'm putting about twice the technical thought into Ayumi, but about half the heart. I'm working on that, but starting from scratch would be cool, too.

I'd like to play Brian to the end of this plotline.

Honestly, his viability as a character after that largely depends on the outcome. I'd not be disinclined to continue with him, but nor will I be heartbroken to retire him for a fresh, less experienced character.

The critical hit, coup de grace, insta-kill concept in the d20 system is flawed...in a big way.

Case in point, I think what Ilyanna did to Jess was completely legitimate for the following reasons:

a) Jess was distracted by her GSW to the leg.
b) Concentrating on returning fire on the Spetsnaz.
c) Had no idea Ilyanna was a sleeper assassin.
d) Don't even tell me that two bursts from pistol at point-blank range wouldn't kill someone.

The d20 rules state:

Coup De Grace requires a helpless target. Helpless means: Sleeping, unconscious, or bound.

It burns me to think that in order to kill you guys I have blow you up, crash a helicopter into you, or shoot you with 150 bullets.

I don't want to lose any players here over a rule call, but it's becoming increasingly frustrating to even wound you guys. I know it's to prevent people usurping the system, but it's not like I do this to piss people off.

Gah.

bump.

The critical hit, coup de grace, insta-kill concept in the d20 system is flawed...in a big way.

Case in point, I think what Ilyanna did to Jess was completely legitimate for the following reasons:

a) Jess was distracted by her GSW to the leg.
b) Concentrating on returning fire on the Spetsnaz.
c) Had no idea Ilyanna was a sleeper assassin.
d) Don't even tell me that two bursts from pistol at point-blank range wouldn't kill someone.

The d20 rules state:

Coup De Grace requires a helpless target. Helpless means: Sleeping, unconscious, or bound.

It burns me to think that in order to kill you guys I have blow you up, crash a helicopter into you, or shoot you with 150 bullets.

I don't want to lose any players here over a rule call, but it's becoming increasingly frustrating to even wound you guys. I know it's to prevent people usurping the system, but it's not like I do this to piss people off.

Gah.

I'll be honest...I don't necessarily *like* the idea of Jess dying.

However, the d20 system suffers very, very heavily from the invincible slab-of-meat syndrome.

Now, my argument is this: Jessica wasn't really helpless. There was the *potential* for her to be moved from harms way, either from the speeding vehicle, dodging another threat, etc. All the way to the truck hitting a bump and everyone lurching.

I can understand it's getting annoying to wound us. Honestly, at this level, d20's rules break down (the sweet spot is about 7th level) and require a great deal of GM modification.

Basically, if you want Jess to get shot in the back of the head, then bend the rules accordingly. The best way I can think of is that a shot the character will not block counts as automatically applying to WP, rather than VP.

Part of the problem is, I think, this was not an avoidable problem. If, during the whole Cops + Spetz issue, Brian had gone down in a hail of gunfire, I'd have been fine with it. The problem is, especially with an autonomous NPC, the situation where a PC is capable of of dying in an essentially random fashion.

I have no problem with our characters being mortal. I do have a problem with unavoidable, undodgeable, instant death.

To use another example, I would expect our first warning that an area was hostile and mined would not be Brian being obliterated by a claymore, even if it is a *credible* way to kill him.

(Edited by CrazyIvan at 1:40 pm on May 26, 2005)

Well, I'm raising two sorts of objections here: why it can't be done, and why it shouldn't be done.

The rules are clear on this. The Coup De Grace is written this way exactly to prevent this happening to PCs. Else we'd have people sneaking up on us capping us in the head from behind all the time. The Spycraft forums are full to the brim with the designers reaffirming that.

In an interesting case in point, check this recent thread:

http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20034

The GM who asks this has a similar problem: lacking lethality. However, nobody says that Coup De Grace should be modified; the consensus is that Extremely Deadly Situation does what he wants. On that topic, there's a clarification in Mastermind, page 119:

"Some GCs and players believe that even common situations, such as a gun fired point-blank at a target, should trigger them.

The rule of thumb when using EDS is that, almost without exception, they take place outside of combat. As soon as either side has rolled initiative, it's too late to use this combat option."

So, going by the book, this can't happen. There's ways to make it happen (Vital Point Supremacy, but that requires a touch attack, and the eigth level ability of the Blank psionic prestige class), but I think we can agree that none of them applies here. It seems clear to me that according to the rules, it can't happen.

Okay. We buck the rules often enough. So, less clear-cut by still (imho) compelling, here's why it shouldn't happen:

A) You guys can't compare, but Dieter can - Jess is superior to Ilyanna in all relevant respects. More Dex, far better reflex save, higher Initiative - need I go on?

Jess doesn't know Ilyanna. Getting into the cab should have earned her a gun stuck in front of her face, if not an outright attack.

C) I don't buy that Jess doesn't notice Ilyanna. There was no mention of any sneaking, and even if Jess couldn't hear anything over the gunfire, it's pretty hard for me to believe that Jess doesn't notice the door opening and Ilyanna climbing in.

D) My final objection is that this constitutes total GC fiat to have Jess ignore her surroundings and tend to the gunshot. She's been wounded before and kept her cool. Unless this was a crit or she failed some sort of save, I find it hard to believe that she is THAT distracted by it.

I mean, all of that plus the fact that it's just bad form. You may say that something similar happened to Ayumi in Mestre, but A) she was already shot up and the sniper rolled a crit. Did Ilyanna? It sounded like the rule was invoked without even rolling.

Really, what more can I say? There's ways to get rid of player characters who get uppity. Heck, I'm even willing to share some nasty tricks, seeing how I seem to be the freak here. But this? I'm not letting that fly on my watch.

Gatac

In my opinion, a game where death isn't a real possibility isn't much of a game. Thus, a big part of my issue with all things d20 and why I like SW so much.

Peter + 2 grenades = 1 scratch? Please. Any reasonable facsimile of a human would have been shredded.

Just my 2 cents (before inflation).

I'm simply frustrated with the rules.

Although I hate to be a buzzkill on the future of this storyline, Gordon did succeed in the coup de grace but Jess made her save to NOT instantly die.

Jess has TEN rounds before the she ascends to that great Spybar in the skies. That a helluva long time in game terms for alot to transpire.

If everyone wants me to redo the everything that transpired after Jess arrived, I'll do it to save the game and to keep everyone happy.

You know what? I agree on Peter. I had every intention of going down saving a teammate, was pleasantly surprised that I didn't, but I would have accepted that.

By the same token, if someone shoots Jess in the head, I'm not objecting.

But I'll have to get in line behind Ivan - autokill is BAD.

Gatac

My vote is to have Jess 2.0 and Ilyanna fight it out point-blank, gun-kata style in the runaway truck while Brian tries to clamber aboard, and where's Carla?

Give Ilyanna a surprise attack on Jess and then play the thing out. Here's the thing, though: There is no reason to ever play anything other than a Soldier again. If you can't get sneaky ninja attacks on people, it turns into a flat-out brawl every time we want or need to terminate someone, so there's no need to invest in anything other than straight combat skills. You don't need to stand down if you have a gun pointed in your face except to play along by genre conventions.

Quote:

Quote: from fanchergw on 1:47 pm on May 26, 2005
In my opinion, a game where death isn't a real possibility isn't much of a game. Thus, a big part of my issue with all things d20 and why I like SW so much.

Peter + 2 grenades = 1 scratch? Please. Any reasonable facsimile of a human would have been shredded.

Just my 2 cents (before inflation).

Peter is near death.

And this isn't a wargame. It's a spy movie...the main characters can leap off exploding trucks, or catch up with a Cessna in free fall and pilot it out of a canyon.

Death is a very real possiblity. I was quite worried - ironically- about Ilyanna if the showdown went south. Hence me getting in last. The team has been near death a few times.

I think part of the problem is the fact that this feels not like Jess *died* but that Jess *got killed*. Nothing Brian or Jess could, reasonably, do to stop it, with little warning. Any game where I'm going to have to assume anything, at any time, could kill us...is not a Spycraft game, and it's not as SnS has been played in the past.

I also think, considering it has *major* ramifications for two PCs, it should have been approached a little more cautiously. How to fix this? I'm not sure.

But this has very serious consequences that kill on PC, and *seriously* alter another.

One problem though is that, simply put, you can't rewind. The cat's out of the bag, Ilyanna is working for someone else. I think we need to move forward. Retroactive bandaids will just muddy the waters more.

It just comes out of nowhere, you know? If there'd been, say, a sound, and Dieter had asked whether Jess would like to look up from the bloody mess and see what it was, and I'd denied, well, that's okay. But this way, it was like somebody called up the console and typed in "killjess 1".

Also, ninja sneakiness isn't dead. If you want me to educate you on all the nasty ways that it can be done, just say so. What's the matter, people? There's lots and lots of ways this can be done legally.

In-cabin gun-kata? Sounds fair.

Gatac

Two points:

1. Sneakyness isn't dead. Reason A: We're PCs, they're not. AEG has, in both Spycraft and 7th Sea, drawn a clear line of distinction between them. A ninja slice to a guard's neck should work. Unless we *know* we're fighting ninjas, I wouldn't expect a character to do it. Reason B: They happen in game. This was essentially an external event.

2. Paranoia. If we want party paranoia, we can get it. But I can, by virtue of studying for exams, think of a dozen ways to kill you with microbes while you're having breakfast. The kind of thing where no reasonable facsimilie of a person will be doing anything other than twitching on the floor while they drown in their own body fluids. But stuff doesn't happen like that in spy movies...so it shouldn't happen in spycraft. Otherwise...watch your cereal.

My solution is one of these two:

Gunkata. Unfortunately, Jess will probably win, which sours the situation somewhat.

Kill Jess. Dump the body. Genre convention, and the classic "Did you SEE the body?" is a viable out.



(Edited by CrazyIvan at 2:05 pm on May 26, 2005)