Ok. Here we go again.

Since Goose and Carla were pretty much running standby, I'll give them a reactive turn before we get into proper initiatives.

We're too close to fail now.

How cramped are those quarters in the car? Is the submachine gunner using Kenji as cover? If the shot is clear, then Ayumi will bust out the guns akimbo, whirl back into the doorway, and fucking light that guy up from point-blank. I've still got the dum-dums in one gun and the Talons in the other. Action dice as needed.

If the shot isn't clear, then the wakizashi comes out and she's diving into the car and trying to get under his guard so, you know, she doesn't get the full clip in her face. Action dice as needed.

brrRRRRRRRAAAAACCCKT

Well, the van would be a little dicey to light up just now. Is the Ferrari in sight? I would enjoy putting some speed holes in it, but Artis probably wants to engage car-to-car. So, I want to fire at "clip the grass level" to take out the van's tires and Ivan's knees, maybe moving higher towards the front of the van.

(Edited by Threadbare at 2:18 am on Mar. 25, 2004)

Art's going to, of course, light up the Ferrari with the Mustang's MGs (the kind of burst that makes it easier to hit... wide burst?). He'll kill his own headlights, seeing as there's probably plenty of headlights to go around and Art has NV goggles ready to go.

Wide = easier to hit/less damage
Narrow = more damage/no to-hit bonus

Oh. Make mine a narrow burst then.

Hm, let Ayumi kill the fucker inside and free her brother. Cover their run to safety, then grab the case again and follow them. Once we're safe, holster the MP7 and ready the TEP.

The Ferrari is Art's problem.

Gatac

Initiatives:
Carla: 27
Ayumi/Mercedes/Goons: 16
Brian: 13
Artis: 14
Ferrari: 8
Jess: 6

And to answer your question, IP. The goon that shot you is leaning over the back seat with his SMG. Kenji won't get struck by the goon's gunfire, but he may get struck if you happen to roll badly.

I guess that means you're diving into the SUV trying to spear the goon with the wakizashi.

Also, RE: the topic:

Opportunity for Final Fantasy joke: Missed.

Gatac

Damn, I'm fast today.

I'ma rip the ferrari a new one before it can really get into serious vehicular combat. full-auto rip, throw in an action die.

Punkey challenged me to cook up this little beauty. I make no claims that it is in any way balanced, though I tried to take out the obvious "insta-crunch factor" as well as I could.

Sleeper Hold
Prerequisites: Holding Basics, Base Attack Bonus +3 or higher

You have extensively trained the usage of this former police technique for rapid pacification of your opponents.

Benefit: This feat grants you the following abilities.
Vein Choke: When you successfully attack an opponent you are grappling, he must make a Fortitude Save of 20 or drop unconscious for 30 minutes / 300 rounds. On a critical failure, the target is knocked out at once; on a normal failure, on his next initiative count. This ability may be used only once per session.
Keep squeezing: After taking out an opponent with a Vein Choke, you may attempt a Coup De Grace on him as a half action. This ability may only be used until the target regains consciousness.

Gatac

Instead of a DC 20 for the fort save, make it 10 + something, like the attacker's BAB, or the amount by which they beat the defender's AC or something.

Well, yeah, the problem is that this technique is actually pretty effective, and usually not dependant on relative skill; if you get your hand on the right spot, it's pretty hard to get away. It's supposed to be very difficult to avoid, which is why I limited it to once per session.

Punkey tried to talk me into a DC 30, just so you know

I'd rather cut down on the time you're down dependant on by how much you failed the save, or something. Because the flat 30 minutes is something I extremely dislike, personally. Also, the second ability is seriously nerfed from what I originally thought was required to model that technique.

And as said, I make no claims that this is in any way balanced.

Gatac

Quote:

Quote: from Gatac on 10:53 am on Mar. 26, 2004
Punkey challenged me to cook up this little beauty. I make no claims that it is in any way balanced, though I tried to take out the obvious "insta-crunch factor" as well as I could.

Sleeper Hold
Prerequisites: Holding Basics, Base Attack Bonus +3 or higher

You have extensively trained the usage of this former police technique for rapid pacification of your opponents.

Benefit: This feat grants you the following abilities.
Vein Choke: When you successfully attack an opponent you are grappling, he must make a Fortitude Save of 20 or drop unconscious for 30 minutes / 300 rounds. On a critical failure, the target is knocked out at once; on a normal failure, on his next initiative count. This ability may be used only once per session.
Keep squeezing: After taking out an opponent with a Vein Choke, you may attempt a Coup De Grace on him as a half action. This ability may only be used until the target regains consciousness.

Gatac

Hmm. Too powerful for my tastes. If it's one thing I can't stand about the d20 system is overuse of the "Save or (insert bad thing)" roll. It's not fun to have an entire scenario ruined by one roll. I smell cheese and it's not cheddar...more like Limburger.

Out for 30 minutes? That's a long freaking time game-wise. I like randomness...randomness GOOOOD! I don't have time for number crunching right now, (maybe Punkey or Gatac'll take a stab at this) but I'd say upon failing the save you're out for d4 (plus attacker's level) minutes.

The BAB should be alot higher, since only highly skilled operatives would even attempt a choke-out. That shit is reserved for Splinter Cell ops and people with last names ending in "Snake".

Oh, and IIRC a coup-de-grace requires a FULL round to execute.

Quote:

Hmm. Too powerful for my tastes. If it's one thing I can't stand about the d20 system is overuse of the "Save or (insert bad thing)" roll. It's not fun to have an entire scenario ruined by one roll. I smell cheese and it's not cheddar...more like Limburger.

Yeah, but how else are you going to model it? Ten seconds squeezing, you go down, hard. Granted, a single save sucks, but I don't have a better idea as of now.

Quote:

Out for 30 minutes? That's a long freaking time game-wise. I like randomness...randomness GOOOOD! I don't have time for number crunching right now, (maybe Punkey or Gatac'll take a stab at this) but I'd say upon failing the save you're out for d4 (plus attacker's level) minutes.

Well, I'm not a fan of 30 minutes either, so I'd be cool with that.

Quote:

The BAB should be alot higher, since only highly skilled operatives would even attempt a choke-out. That shit is reserved for Splinter Cell ops and people with last names ending in "Snake".

Actually, this was standard police training until they dropped it because of too many accidental deaths. Since it's takedown of one target per session and quite limited, that further counted against making the prerequisites higher.

Quote:

Oh, and IIRC a coup-de-grace requires a FULL round to execute.

It does, this is why I included the second ability to represent that killing the guy now only requires a bit more squeezing after you've already dropped him. This I find less critical, since it's only against one target and even then unlikely to be extremely deadly, due to the fact that the save DC can hardly climb above 13 unless you're a Martial Artist.

I agree, it's powerful, but given the nature of the move, it could be a lot worse. We'll probably need to nerf it some more, though.

Gatac

There's a reason why it's so powerful.

The sleeper hold is actually very easy to do, the hard part is just knowing where to press. What you do is put your thumbs on top of where the jugular vein is in the victim's neck and push. Veins are very close to the surface, so you can easily press the vein flat. Now you have blood going into the brain, but not going out. Since a large percentage of the blood in the body is going to the brain at any one moment, pressure will build up very quickly, placing immense pressure on the brain, and causing it to shut down, killing or knocking out the victim, depending on how long you hold them. The whole move takes about 10-12 seconds to kill someone.

The reason why the police used to use it is that you can disable someone very quickly with this technique. However, you can also kill someone very quickly with this technique, and after enough accidental deaths, they stopped teaching it in the academies. Military personel who undergo indepth hand-to-hand combat training are taught this, and a few martial arts teach it as well. Like I said, it's not that complex of a move, but unless you're really good with it, it's really easy to kill someone with it as well.

Meh...if I weren't knee-deep in d20s for the Spycraft system, I'd do away with whole thing. Over the past year or so, I've come to find that I don't mind over-complicated systems...as long as I'm not the one running the game.

It amazing how fast I can crunch through a Savaged scenario and how mind-numbingly bogged down I get when I just add a d20 plus numerous modifiers.

The problem isn't so much that it's unrealistic - my brother's working for the same guys that I used to work for before I made websites, except as a training assistant, not an editor, and he'll be the first to support the effectiveness of the technique.

It's that it's a realistic rule for a game filled with UNrealistic ones.

A 9mm should be a greater threat to one's well-being than a sleeper hold, and in Spycraft, it wouldn't be.

Before I start getting riled up about some things in d20 systems, let me get back on the point. Having a fixed DC means that low-level PCs will never make a save, and high-level ones will regard it as a non-threat. Having a DC that scales with one's level, or at least the level/combat abilities of the attacker, is better for long-term game balance. Hence my suggestion of basing the DC on (static number) + BAB (or something like it).

Once per session is silly IMO - real cops don't think "I can only grab somebody once today, I better hold off on this robber in case we need to stop a murderer or rapist later".

The time period in which you're out doesn't make a difference to me. If it's longer than a minute (most combats), then you will either be capped or captured, as the case may be. Doesn't matter whether you're out 5 minutes or 5 hours.

Now, all that said, I like the idea, if it's not already done somewhere else I think it'd be a cool feat.

How do normal grappling/holding rules work? Can someone lay it down for me?

And we'll stop the d20 crazy-train right here...

Any future comments can be directed towards the "CAMPAIGN COMMENTS" thread.

(moved)

(Edited by Punkey at 10:09 am on Mar. 26, 2004)